Seriously, the two authors of this equally fatuous article have fallen prey to utter stupidity. A little research would have changed the entire premise of this article. Nightline might even have dropped the story after realizing that the program is not based on facts.
Check the opening line: "It's every girl's dream to find her prince, and the reality is, there are quite a few of them out there."
True and false. It's not every girl's dream. Some girls want to be lawyers or doctors or soccer players. Yes, there are a lot of princes "out there," but none of them are appearing in this program.
"Lord" Robert Walters is best known as an underwear model, but he is not entitled to call himself Lord Robert. Lord Robert would mean one of two things: younger son of a duke or younger son of a marquess. He is neither. He has inherited a Lordship of a Manor. Lords of the Manor are feudal titles, but are not peerages. A Lord of the Manor cannot call himself Lord Robert, example. He is pretending to be someone he is not: the younger son of a duke or a marquess.
It is also difficult to trace one's bloodline back to Henry VIII. He does not have any known descendants. It is not known for sure if Henry was the father of Catherine Carey, the elder child of Mary Boleyn.
In England, a Lordship of a Manor is recognized as a form of propriety. A good percentage of Lordships remain within the families, but others have been sold. Lord Spencer sold several of his Lordships of the Manor several years ago.
http://ukinusa.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/faqs/knighthood-honours/buy-british-title
From the FAQ on what can be used in a British passport:
Manorial titles
A Manorial title (i.e. Lord of the Manor) is not a title of nobility and may be bought and sold by the owner of the property to which the title refers. The Lord Lyon King of Arms has also confirmed that for Scottish Lairds it is not necessary for the words "Laird of" to appear on any part of a passport. Requests from applicants and passport holders for Manorial titles and Scottish Lairds to be included in their passports may be accepted providing documentary evidence is submitted, and recorded in the passport with the observation e.g.:
THE HOLDER IS THE LORD OF THE MANOR OF....................... But it should be noted that the person cannot call himself as Lord Christian name surname.
In other words, Robert Walters is not a prince. He is also not a noble. A commoner. Period.
http://www.chichester.co.uk/lifestyle/entertainment/entertainment_his_lordship_puts_on_a_cheeky_show_for_the_ladies_as_the_boys_come_to_town_1_1512324
Salauddinkhan Babi is the eldest son of Nawab Babi Shri Muhammed Salabat Skhaji, whose family once ruled the princely state of Babi, now Balasinor.
The family's palace is now a hotel, the Garden Palace Hotel. Apparently, the place burned down some years, and the family built the new home in the 1940s.
http://heritagehotels.com/heritage-hotels-india/gujarat/balasinore/Garden-Palace-Hotel-Balasinore.htm
The Hon, Ludovic Watson is the younger son of the 4th Baron Manton. His elder brother is heir to the peerage. Children of peers of the realm are commoners. The only people in the UK who are not commoners are the Sovereign and Peers of the Realm. The Duke of Cambridge is a peer of the realm. Prince Harry is legally a commoner.
Ludo's father is the 4th Baron Manton. He is the great-grandson of Joseph Watson (1873-1922), who turned his family's soap business into a major company, a rival to Lever. Watson sold the business to Lever Brothers. In 1922, Watson was elevated to Baron Manton of Compton Verney for his work in munitions during the first world war. The new Lord Manton had recently purchased Compton Verney in Warwickshire, a Robert Adams stately home, but he never lived there, having died a year after purchasing the house. His son, Miles, lived at Compton Verney for several years before selling it.
In other words, the Mantons are nouveau nobility.
This brings us to Don Francisco de Borbon y von Hardenberg, who is the son and heir of Don Francisco de Paul de Borbon y Ecasany, Duke of Seville, Grandee of Spain. The Duke of Seville is a fourth cousin of King Juan Carlos of Spain. No princely titles.
Don Francisco's father works as a banker. No palace. No grand home.
This kinship does not make the Duke of Seville a member of the Spanish Royal family. He has been married three times. His first wife was Countess Beatrice von Hardenberg, the daughter of Count Gunther von Hardenburg and Princess Maria Josefa zu Fürstenberg. The Cisco kid is not even the heir to the Seville dukedom. Since 2009, Spanish titles of nobility are inherited by the eldest child, not the eldest son. Thus, Cisco's eldest sister, Olivia. is the heiress apparent to the Seville dukedom.
TLC is trying to pull the wool over American eyes, and I am telling TLC, I have opened the barn door, and I am leaving it open. I will admit that there are some Americans who are soooooo naive (Honey Boo Boo's mother, for example), who will lap this froth up. But let me say right here, right now, from someone who knows a lot about royalty: TLC is making it all up, and allow people to be someone they are not!
I cannot believe Nightline is actually covering this story - and two!!! distaff "journalists" who wrote this article should have actually done some real research. ABC News has fallen into the gutter ... what a shame.
This reminds of a HBO series, Born Rich (2003) where one of the alleged Richie Rich kids was "Carlo von Zeitschel," who claimed he was the great-grandson of Kaiser Wilhelm II ... and an Italian count and a German baron!
Let's just say, none of the above is more accurate.
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/secret-princes-undercover-find-love-us/story?id=17264838#.UFlB641lTJU
A review that has a link to Royal Musings ... woo hoo!
http://www.channelguidemagblog.com/index.php/2012/09/21/who-are-secret-princes/
Francisco of Borbón is a crazy "...I am the third in the line to be king of France...", since when ?. He is great-great-grandson of the Infante Enrique, Duke of Seville, brother in law of Queen Isabel II of Spain. Infante Enrique was killed by Prince Antoine d´Orleans, married to Infante Luisa Fernanda of Spain, sister of the Queen. Enrique married to a commoner and he lost his rights to Spanish and French Trones. His sons and descendants now belong to Spanish aristocracy, not to royalty.
ReplyDeleteBeatriz von Hardenberg, her mother, is very eccentric, she used to attend to parties in Spain with little porks.
Her daughther Olivia, sister of Francisco, took part in a reality show in Spanish T.V. They like to be " Borbón ", but Spanish royal family has not relationship with them.
I completely agree! The moment I saw the commercial I knew it was a complete farce!
ReplyDeleteJuan, one cannot lose one's right to the (Legitimist) French throne by marrying a commoner.
ReplyDeleteit doesn´t matter, even in the case Francisco de Borbón had rights to the French Throne, he is not " the third in the line to be king of France". Luis Alfonso de Borbón, Duke d´Anjou, is "the king" according to the French legitimist, then his sons Luis and Alfonso, and then the King Juan Carlos of Spain and his son Felipe, The Prince of Asturias.
ReplyDeleteI think it does matter when you stated that Enrique lost his right to the French throne when he would not have. True about the wrong place in succession though.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteMarlene Eilers Koenig you are totally pathetic!!! As an american woman if I dont like something..I dont watch it..period!!! All of your research has achieved what?? That you think USA is naive and your helping them?? Its a tv show USA doesn't care. You think that trying to delve into the guys roots and claiming Prince Harry is a commoner is impressing anyone! Let me remind you about how royal bloodlines work did you know that some of the current Royal family's roots are German!! People like you are a cancer in society, bored, unhappy people that have nothing better to do with there time.
ReplyDeleteI think that if your life is this empty and that you are this bored, that you should get few more hobbies or maybe a more challenging job, that is if you have a job. So Prince sal's house is now a hotel, so what if Francisco father works in a bank, so what if Robert inherited a title and so what if the honorable Ludovic is not a Lord himself, he never claims to be. Take my advise and spend more time worrying about your own life instead of others.
Gee Sarah, thanks for the vote of confidence. You do realize I am American, I am a university librarian, and the author of several books on royalty. I am well aware of the "roots" of royals .. and a lot of other people as well. The name of my blog is Royal Musings ... which means I muse ...
ReplyDeleteYour own education seems to be a bit lacking. Your grammar is atrocious, as you apparently do not know the difference between you are, you're and your or advice and advise ... Pot, kettle, black.
Robert has not inherited a title, period, full stop. He's not a Lord. Perhaps you should spend some time reading Royal Musings. You just might learn something ... have a great day, Sarah.
I just saw the commercial to this show and decided to do a little sleuthing about these "princes". I agree with you that they are misrepresenting who these guys are. Because I've researched English nobility, I knew right away that these were definately not of the nobility, much less royalty! But the sad truth is that most Americans don't have a clue. I think a lot of people are fascinated with royalty, but really know nothing about it. I know I won't watch it! It's just too insulting to my intelligence :-)
ReplyDeleteI mainly can't wait for the finale when the "princes" reveal that they've been lying to their lady friends about who they really are and are *shocker* "ROYALTY!"... but when will they admit that they're not ACTUALLY anything important.
ReplyDeleteAKA Sarah Davis if you think that anyone involved with this show have ever even locked eyes with Kate Middleton you are the stupidest person alive. Real princes don't go on American TV shows, or any TV shows for that matter.
Thanks for the info. The show is totally misrepresented. I knew it when I saw how douchy Robert Walters, the british one, was in the first 30 seconds of the show.
ReplyDeleteWow, I am Spanish and had never even heard of the Spanish contestant. That's how "famous" he is here...
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the Borbons have a historical reputation for being womanizers, so... no, thanks. I pity the poor American girl who gets attached to any of these imposters.
In reply to Marlene Eilers Koenig: I have noted your comments and the fact that you have casted aspersions about the people involved in the Secret Princes programme. With regard to your comments about Robert, I would like to confirm that my family and I have been serving at Fulwood Manor for several generations and we have always been treated with great equality and respect, despite the class differences. Of course, I appreciate your concerns which are understandable, but I felt it was my duty to defend the good name of Robert and his heritage. On a separate note, I had the pleasure of visiting your wonderful country this summer.
ReplyDeleteDear Mary
ReplyDeleteA double barrell working as a domestic. don't think so ... and it's Fullwood Manor .. and I sincerely doubt that there is a manor house in existance with this lordship of the manor. I am not casting aspersions, I am casting facts. Robert Walters cannot call himself Lord Robert because he is NOT YOUNGER SON OF A DUKE OR A MARQUESS. If he inherited a Lordship of a Manor, he can add the name to the passport as explained in my post. But he is not a peer. He is the one casting aspersions about his own "title." He is Mr. Robert Walters, Lord of the Manor of Fullwood, if indeed he has a legitimate lordship. But to describe himself as Lord Rob is wrong. Moreover, there have been several Fullwood and Fulwood Manors but all are now gone. Rob, in an interview several years ago, said his father has an "estate" in Spain, but made no mention of his historic manor. He is certainly not listed in Burke's or Debrett's.
Susana,
ReplyDeleteFrancisco has been in Hola and other glossies. He is legitimately the son of the Duke of Seville, but he is not a prince, of course. His sister, Olivia de Borbon, has been a model.
Hola, Semana, etc., have reported on the Duke's antics for years. He's been married three times.
Looks like that huge palace in India only has 8 guest rooms. It seems like the rest of it is actually a palace. Please try to out the Indian guy a little more because all I'm getting here is that you can stay in part of his palace, not that he is not what he claims to be.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Sarah up above. This show is entertaining; what else matters when you're discussing (with amusing sincerity) reality television? The whole concept of royalty is ridiculous in the first place.
ReplyDeleteThen what are you doing reading this blog?
ReplyDeleteWith anything "reality" on television, it's to be taken with a grain of salt. If someone wants do dig into backup information (like me ), so be it. I find geneaology very interesting and thank some of you for the factual information in some of your posts because trying to understand royalty/nobility is confusing, to say the least. Either way, it's interesting to me to hear what they have to say, regardless of titles. It's something different from the Kardashians who have no royal heritage but act like it and just created their livelihoods from their father's/husband's representation of O.J. Simpson.
ReplyDeleteI'm just enjoying the humor of these gents, royalty or not. The dating world is truly a circus. :)
Hello :) Question -- so Francisco would eventually become a Duke (of Seville) if his father were to die, or to pass his title on in some way?
ReplyDeleteIf Cisco got married when he eventually becomes Duke (?), would his wife become a duchess? If yes, would it not be an actual "princess" title as in Duchess Kate's (a "princess") case?
I believe he stated that he is close in line to the French throne...is this correct below?
Quoted from: http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f76/rival-claimants-to-the-french-throne-10143-11.html#post939455
"Here is the line of succession to the french throne :
Current pretender : Luis Alfonso de Borbon y Martinez-Bordiu, duke of Anjou
1. Juan Carlos de Borbon y Borbon, king of Spain
2. Felipe de Borbon y Grecia, prince of Asturias
3. Francisco de Borbon y Escasany, duke of Seville
...
77. Henri d'Orléans, count of Paris
78. François d'Orléans, count of Clermont
79. Jean d'Orléans, duke of Vendôme"
Thank you!!
Depends how you look at the French succession. The count of Paris is seen as the main claimant. But if you are a loyalist, you see a Spanish commoner as the head. Francisco will succeed his father as duke, but that will not make him royal. His wife will be a duchess, but in Spain women retain their own names
ReplyDeleteMarlene, do you happen to know what the younger Don Francisco (on the tv show) does for a living, where he lives full time, who he dated/lived with for three years? I can't find anything on him...
ReplyDeleteThanks. :)
I have no idea who Francisco de Borbon has dated in the past three years, but I am sure that if you go through back issues of Hola and other Spanish weeklies, you might find articles on the family. His sister, Olivia, has done a reality show, too.
ReplyDeleteDear Snoopy,
ReplyDeleteI believe Francisco is the President of "ASAP S.L." which, I think, is something of a publishing company. Not quite sure, but hope it helps!
I thought i read somewhere that Spain had an equality standing with royals, so Olivia is the next in line and since Francisco is the youngest child, he is after his two sisters.
ReplyDeleteThe law for the succession to the throne has not been changed, but inheritance to Spanish titles has been changed to allow for the eldest child to succeed
ReplyDeleteIt amazes me how obsessed with royalty Americans are. I can't imagine that anyone would claim a title that they're not entitled to for fear of repercussions. For one, no American can hold a title, Royal or Aristocratic, without relinquishing their American citizenship. My mother married a prince, HRH Prince Ehi of Benin and thereby became a Princess. According to our DNA testing, my ancestors were Edo people from Benin. I therefore am entitled to the title of Princess. But there is a huge"hiccup"...I would have to relinquish my US citizenship. Um, no thank you. When the people from my stepfather's country visit his and my mother's home they treat him and the rest of my family like royalty...literally! I've had people ask to wash my friggin feet! My son was bathed in all sorts of oils at birth and has dozens of God parents who send him tons of gifts on birthdays and holidays. I, for one, could care less. We are all humans and no one is "higher" than someone else because of lineage or marriage! My stepfather is a huge "ass"and speaks down to people, even though he is the 4th son and has no earthly chance of ever becoming king. It is cute knowing you're a princess, especially when you grew up watching and reading about their fairytale lives. As for the one guys father being a banker, quite a number of "royals" hold normal jobs! Unless you're queen or king, you should! Actually they probably work more than you know, it's hard work running a kingdom. They have to balance budgets, resolve conflicts and cater to people. All while looking as perfect as possible. God bless em!
ReplyDeleteYours truly,
"Princess Tasha"
Tasha, one doesn't have to renounce their US citizenship to use a title. Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_Nobility_Amendment
ReplyDeleteAlso, being the step-daughter of a prince does not make you a princess. Sorry but you aren't a princess.
Tasha, you are incorrect about Americans and titles. There is nothing in the consitution about Americans having titles and losing citizenship. Elected officials cannot receive foreign honors, for example, which is why former presidents and other officials receive their honorary knighthoods after they leave office.
ReplyDeleteThere is at least one American who inherited an earldom - he doesn't lose his citizenship. No law denies him of that right ... he can even call himself Lord so and so, but is unlikely to do so.
Perhaps you should read my blog regularly .. you will learn about royal history ... but not African royalty (which is of no interest to me.)
Francisco is not royal, which means you are missing the point. He's not a prince, nor is his father.
Charles,
ReplyDeleteAnyone can write a Wikipedia entry. I certainly do not recommend one citing Wikipedia as a source.
I usually do not get into these discussions, but just a quick note before I go on with my life, THIS IS TELEVISION (AKA ENTERTAINMENT). How many of these reality shows do you think is 100% real? Of course these guys are not going to be 100% princes, what royal would really go on tv to find a wife?! Common sense people. Everyone knows not even the news or other forms of media are 100% accurate. IF you don't like a show, do not watch it. Do not get your panties in a twist and find something better to do with your time.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comment - and before you get on that high horse, you do realize that this blog is about royalty and not horse racing ...
ReplyDeleteObviously you hit your head on the wall before signing on to write your tripe ...
Is this "do as I say, not as I do"? You should take your own advice about getting panties in a twist over getting panties in a twist! So untwist your panties and have a good day.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if it crossed anyone's mind that, because this is television entertainment, TLC may simply be catering to their viewers by calling them Princes? With the exception of Robert & Francisco, the other 2 are who they say they are. Ludo is Honourable Ludovic, Sal is a Prince. As can probably be agreed, most Americans do not know the lines of royal sucession, what the many different titles are and what they mean and how they identify your place in a royal or aristocratic family. If its not what you do or something you've chosen to educate yourself on it is complicated. Throw in how they all differ from country to country and its downright messy. Maybe, just maybe, TLC was catering to the viewers and people they would assume would be watching the show & decided to make it a tad more appealing, while also making it drastically simpler, by calling these dudes Princes. I'm just sayin. I know they aren't actually princes and I don't care. The lure of watching wealthy people hide their identities to find "true love" is what sucks people in. Who cares?! Really. Yes I agree they should not misrepresent themselves but in their own little worlds they know what's up and so do the people who work for them. It's easy to pull the wool over the eyes of Americans...LOL. Most just stand there and beg for you not to touch their blinders! All that said, yeah....stupid show. Don't even get me started on Honey Boo Boo LOL........
ReplyDeleteI wholeheartedly agree with Claudia. It's fluff & entertainment, so who cares what they call these guys? I can't believe anyone is going to get their knickers in an uproar over details in ANY reality show. It's mostly smoke and mirrors and people should realize that as they're watching (or not).
ReplyDeletereality tv should be real, by virtue of the word reality. The entire premise is false - by having 4 men pretending to be princes. This is not entertainment ... it's trash, and nothing more. In other words, change the channel ...
ReplyDeleteAll of you who are complaining are missing the whole point of this thread as far as I see it. Marlene was just giving us some interesting facts in response to the false advertising of this program. I was actually researching whether they were real princes or not when I came across this blog. It saved me the time of digging since she had all the info I needed right here.
ReplyDeleteThis is information that people like me, who enjoy reading about royalty and the aristocracy, enjoy reading about. I've researched the facts on other shows too. I'm not sure how this offends some of you??!
So I want to say "thank you!" Marlene for this information and your blog. It's interesting to see the what gets people so bent out of shape...
You are very welcome, Kim .. and thank you for reading Royal Musings
ReplyDeleteFor the record, from what I've read, Olive has given her right to the throne to her brother, so Francisco is actually next inline for Duke of Seville.
ReplyDeleteIn Googling Secret Princes for the new season (I think it's season 2?), I found this older article of yours. I'm just starting to watch the show and doubt that these guys could really be "princes" or royalty of any means so I wondered... have you also researched these "characters" from the new season?
ReplyDeleteI have to assume that they're not royalty at all and would love to know more about who they truly are and if you've already done the research, I'm hoping you'll say!
Nancy I have written about the new cast http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/2013/09/oh-no-not-second-season-of-secret.html
ReplyDeleteYou can always use the search box to see if I have written something
Thanks for this article.. once I found this show I had to research because it seems contrived... and sure enough? It is.
ReplyDeletePretty interesting information. I am confused with some things. It is just because I am uneducated in royalty. Regardless, I never knew that there was controversy on who Mary Bolen's child was. Wow. Cool info. It is wild that they cannot do DNA work to see if there is a connection. I am guessing that they would have to dig the body up. Also, I know that you stated that the genealogy is hard to prove that far back. This may be another misconception, but did royalty keep a family bible that had genealogy recorded in it? Also, I like watching the show because it is a train wreck. I know it is fake. Many don't. I have several discussions in regards to Honey Boo Boo with my mother. I think that everything is set up. My mom thinks they are really that stupid. I don't know. I think when you want money, you make $12,000 or per episode, you would act stupid also. Especially if that is what would get people to watch it. Thanks for all the info. I know that the show causes eye rolls for you. Like I said before, it is a train wreck.
ReplyDeleteThan you for the info! It is just a funny show to watch, nothing real about having first dates while being follwed by a camera crew. It is really a good old concept to disguise as people with no materialistic gains to find love.
ReplyDeleteLOVE your blog WAY funny and very truthful, just what's needed online.
ReplyDeleteCisco did not married his mother... taha was his father. Better research next time.
ReplyDeleteHa Ha his father's name is Francisco, too
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed this blog it was very informative I appreciate someone doing their research and giving accurate information. I watched the show on Netflix so I fast-forwarded most of it because it was pretty silly. But like a dumb dumb I got hooked in and wanted to see what happened at the end. I thought Cisco seemed a kind and considerate man. I think Camille showed her character a few times and I felt he could do better. The show it's self was based upon so much arranged encounters that were obviously unrealistic. They said these ladies chose the men for their personalities but I would assume if a camera crew was following them these girls knew something was going on and wanted to be in on the 15 minutes of fame. I felt sorry for the guy from India he seemed like he would attach to anyone with blond hair and a pair of legs and even considered giving up everything moving to America for that girl.
ReplyDeletethanks for your kind remarks. Hope you will stop by ROyal Musings more often
ReplyDeleteI just finished season 1 on Netflix and my mom and I really enjoyed it. Some parts were super cheesy but that's for the younger audience. We all know these guys are not real royalty since but I was disappointed to learn that the titles were not true at all. Sal is the son to the equivalent of a governor. His family is impressive (in cultural ways) but this is not an actual crown. I was able to learn these things just with wikipedia but I thank you for your blog as well. I find aristocracy history fascinating, not for the money but for the art and history and culture of it all. I was disappointed by the misreprentations of using the title "prince". Besides that I loved the show. All involved were very likeable to me including the bad friends. I thought everyone was genuine and I am happy they opened up their lives to the camera.It is a start for a discussion on culture and gender roles and finding love.
ReplyDeleteWell its true what Marlene says Francisco de Borbon y Hardenberg is not a prince. I am descended from spanish nobility myself. I am in no way a princess, a noble. I am just a plain commoner. Now it appears from doing research I do have a coat of arms in my family that was granted to an ancestor for his merits and service but not because he's noble and the grant stated it was left for all his descendants by King Phillip in 1563, although his daughter married a member from the house of velasco, which I can say is distantly related to Cisco. He's technically my 26th cousin. But yeah being the child of a prince or princess doesn't mean that its an automatic title inheritance. Cisco's grandmother was in fact a princess, but his mother inherited the title of Countess not princess. So its not what everyone expects or as glamorous as people like to make it out to be. Thanks for the great info Marlene much appreciated and I enjoyed it.
ReplyDeleteI’m watching this drivel for the first time out of utter boredom. I realize not a lot of people know that practically every reality show is fake and TLC being the most fake, scripted etc. The entire premise of this show would lead one to the assumption that it is fake. No actual royal would appear on a show like this. And what type of woman would want to date a man who has no money, lives in an unclean hovel with other bachelors at 30s and 40s? It seems there was no attempt to even try at making this look real. I have never in my life dated someone for money. I also wouldn’t date someone that was broke, lived in filth and had a bunch of roommates at that age. For what it’s worth I’m American and I admit this show is utter trash (and playing in the background) while I half watch it. It can’t be taken seriously. Also I cannot bring myself to watch shows like Honey Boo Boo. This is as close as I get and it took a pandemic to push me this far. 🤣
ReplyDelete